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Report 1817
Report #1817 Skillset: Night Skill: Steal Org: Celest Status: Rejected Sept 2017 Furies' Decision: Rejecting, looking for other solutions. Problem: Taking over Aeldra's report (1809) here: Shadowdance steal -> Shadowdance twist has no build-down mechanic. Once they have twisted you, it takes until the next dawn for your shadow to reset. There is no other skill in the game that lets you build towards a kill condition, and hold that buildup for up to an hour. Soulless, but it is much more limited in use, since it's channeled. The goal here is simply to add in a reset mechanic without hurting the twist skill itself. R: 4 Solution #1: Add a 20s timer that starts counting down after the following skills: Shadowdance steal, twist, squeeze, nightkiss and nightgaze. If the timer hits 0 then the shadow resets, with a message to the night user as well as victim that the shadow has poofed, and twists have reset. 6 R: 4 Solution #2: Add to the planar summon skill: SUMMON SHADOW, which would be a 10s channeled action to resummon your shadow to yourself (In reality the shadow will poof and reset twists). This summoning would notify the night user, work across all planes/continents, and ignore mono/movement of the shadow holder etc. 4 R: 7 Solution #3: Add a 15s timer that starts counting down after the following skills: Shadowdance steal, twist, squeeze, nightkiss, nightgaze, AND LASH. If the timer hits 0 then the shadow resets, with a message to the night user as well as victim that the shadow has poofed, and twists have reset. Player Comments: ---on 9/13 @ 12:26 sets as pending ---on 9/13 @ 12:40 writes: I understand the rationale behind Sol 1, but I think the 20s timer off the last steal/twist/squeeze/nightkiss is a bit limiting for the Night user. This will essentially punish the night user for sitting on a shadow to use the final twist at the right time. Perhaps maybe a set timer from after masochism comes back. This allows you to keep the same rewards for the victim (shadow resets if you break from combat) but doesn't punish the SD for sitting on a twist for the right time if the victim voluntarily stays in combat. ---on 9/13 @ 12:49 writes: I got that feeling also @Anelissa, which is why I included nightkiss, which would allow the night user to keep the shadow from fading if they wanted to hold it for a combo. ---on 9/13 @ 13:08 writes: There is not much for me to really add here, but I do think the solutions are a start to provide counterplay to a kit in general that has a lot going for it when it comes to being able to pressure mana. Whether that be from released shadows, banshees, etc and ultimately the T-word. Anelissa addressed any issues with the solutions best I believe when it comes to both parties. ---on 9/13 @ 13:40 writes: Change solution 2 to not summon but destroy the shadow. ---on 9/13 @ 13:41 writes: For clarity any solution should destroy the shadow not steal it back to the victim. ---on 9/13 @ 15:51 writes: Preference for solution 2. If we go with solution one I feel you'd need to add nightgaze/lash to the list, as both also benefit from holding a shadow (bonus damage/drain respectively). I'm not sure if that was an intentional omition or not. ---on 9/13 @ 16:36 writes: @Veyils - updating the wording now. -- No @Tarken, omitting lash/gaze wasn't intentional ---on 9/13 @ 16:37 writes: Cont: that would be my ignorance of the night skillset showing. I didn't even realize Nightgaze was a thing, so I'll add that to the list. With regards to lash: I'm not 100% sold on the idea that it should just passively stick around endlessly as log as the Night user is active around them. I sort of do like the idea of them using a balance to damage (not furthering other kill methods) in order to reset the timer. How would you feel about changing the timer to 15s and adding lash to the list of things that reset the timer? ---on 9/13 @ 21:18 writes: I do think the timer suggested here is too short-- should be longer, not shorter. If combat ends, it's going to be done for at least a couple of minutes, so having a base timer at 60s would be preferable (that's not 'forever' as far as I'm concerned, whereas 20s / 15s is pretty darn limiting). The goal should be to make it so that a shadow can't be used from fight to fight, not to make it so that a SD absolutely must perform actions from a subset of abilities in order to be able to use their offense. The shorter the timer, the easier it is to have certain strong hindering actions eat away a significant block of that window. ---on 9/14 @ 14:06 writes: 20s is possibly too short. 30s might be fine. This would allow someone to spam shield against an SD in 1v1s to stall them out, which isn't particularly fun, but also not new to Wiccans. ---on 9/14 @ 15:42 writes: 20s would be ok as long as you can refresh the timer powerless with skills like nightkiss and gaze. 15 is a bit short in general. I prefer solution 2 in general though. 10 seconds of channeled time interupted by the fairly standard stuff prone/mental affs etc. ---on 9/14 @ 19:13 writes: I think all solutions help with the core issue of the problem, no build-down mechanic. I am most in favour of Sol1 and least in favour of Sol2 (but would still support it). I would even support 30s over sol2. If we go with Sol2, I wonder if we could append Aeldra's idea of having the fact that your shadow has been stolen on diagnose? ---on 9/16 @ 02:58 writes: The goal of this report -seems- to be stopping prebuilt twisted shadows being 'saved' for later. The proposed timers seem to suggest instead trying to force twist in to being a timebomb type ability. Use it or lose it. I continue to suggest simply giving shadows a 90 second life requiring the Night user to twist/tighten/squeeze to refresh the timer. Please keep in mind: only one Night user can steal a target shadow, this is Glomdoring's only access to aeon, twist can only be used a certain number of times before either advancing to the next affliction or destroying the shadow, and the general weakness of afflictions outside the double aeon and final twist (these afflictions being prone, sleep, stupidity and broken leg). All that said, out of the proposed solutions I would hesitantly support solution 1 with at least 30s timer with lash included on the list or solution 2 as a much less preferred solution. ---on 9/18 @ 21:40 writes: 15s is too short. 20s might be okay. But as with Veyils I prefer sol 2, making it an active skill. ---on 9/19 @ 19:18 writes: I don't prefer Solution 2 as it's yet another specific syntax to implement and remember. ---on 9/19 @ 23:05 writes: Pref for solution 2 as stated. 20 Seconds of reset time if you can refresh using non power skills like twist, Nightgaze or Nightkiss or 40 seconds for only power abilities eg tighten, squeeze, etc to reset the timer. ---on 9/21 @ 23:25 writes: For clarity sol2 should be interuptable by mental afflictions and prone/entangle etc. ---on 9/24 @ 20:58 writes: Twenty or thirty seconds seems legit in this instance. ---on 9/29 @ 20:31 writes: I had not seen this report or it's solution till like a few days ago, not 100% convinced of either solution, but I suppose 1 or 2 are workable. Support accordingly. ---on 9/30 @ 20:42 writes: Just going to vote No since this report was (Yet Again) put up without talking with any Glomdoring envoys, the solutions don't really take concerns into account (as Crek has pointed out, they are solutions that do not address the problem but try to sneak nerfs in-- the problem would easily have been addressed with a 60s timer without really impacting the skill). In addition, there is nothing in here for handling a Warrior using a Shadow (yes, warriors can steal shadows, and it does increase warrior damage with normal warrior attacks without needing to stop to twist all the time). Personal preference is that this report just be rejected with a "Glomdoring, please submit a report that addresses the stated problem" (which honestly if nobody else had I would have this coming month, but now we have to wait for this report decision before looking into that). I am just going to reiterate the point that it really is a good idea to actually work with people and not just throw stuff out.